OSV Daily Take Blog

There are many "catholic" sources such a...

2010-10-01T11:31:25.832-04:00

There are many "catholic" sources such a newspapers (online and paper), blogs, and authentic church sites such as those of the Vatican and bishops'. Some of these contradict others. Even bishops disagree about some things. The media can be partly blamed - I worked in government and was always amazed at how the media described the work I dealt with. But most reporters are stretched thin this days.

"For MacDonald, this also means that the kind...

2010-10-01T09:40:22.765-04:00

"For MacDonald, this also means that the kind of preaching that comforts the afflicted and afflicts the comfortable is no longer tolerated. Instead of Gospel witness, people seek funny stories and want to leave church “feeling great about themselves.”

Sadly all too true. Instead of relying upon the objective truth of encountering Christ in Word and Sacrament at Holy Mass people now want the pastor to tell jokes and rely on their feelings and experiences in living out their Catholic lives.

How I long for a return to a sense of the numinous and reverence at Mass.

Mary- thanks for posting this, it is really great....

2010-10-01T08:59:48.000-04:00

Mary- thanks for posting this, it is really great. Bravo to Kevin and to all of you who shine a light with your journalistic work.

And for the reminder that we are all part of this, together. One body.

14 of 15, and the Supreme Court is quite simply wr...

2010-09-30T15:15:44.241-04:00

14 of 15, and the Supreme Court is quite simply wrong about the one I missed. That's my story and I'm sticking to it ;-)

15 out of 15... a hispanic Catholic (whom they say...

2010-09-29T21:01:47.712-04:00

15 out of 15... a hispanic Catholic (whom they say scored the lowest) who has not even gotten a college degree... (yet)...
yeah some of them seem rather trivial, not so much about religions in and of themselves, but about events related with religions or religious movements.

14 out of 15! Woo-hoo!

2010-09-29T18:31:05.192-04:00

14 out of 15! Woo-hoo!

I scored 80% but was misled by the publicity on th...

2010-09-29T18:18:54.009-04:00

I scored 80% but was misled by the publicity on this quiz. Everything I read about it said all the questions were based on the Bible. Not true, by a long shot.

got 14 of 15... (I still maintain that nirvana is ...

2010-09-29T15:31:07.628-04:00

got 14 of 15... (I still maintain that nirvana is a gaol of hinduism even though the test says differently)

I got 12/15. I gotta say I'm a little offended...

2010-09-29T15:28:51.975-04:00

I got 12/15. I gotta say I'm a little offended by that little compare your results by religion things. I'm a black Catholic and that wasn't even an option. Then again, it didn't mention Asian Christians at all so I'm not that offended. LOL

I scored 15 in spite of not being American. The ...

2010-09-29T14:08:51.929-04:00

I scored 15 in spite of not being American.

The test proves absolutely nothing since the groupings do not compare like with like.

"Atheist/agnostic" is a self-descriptor which people only give themselves if they have a very clear opinion on the subject, while "Catholic" (etc) can merely mean that one was born in a Catholic family or country and feels some lingering kinship with Catholicism.

In fact such a small proportion of the population describe themselves as "Atheist/agnostic" that the study had to oversample the group as they admit in the small print.

I got all 15 right, though I think this test does ...

2010-09-29T11:09:03.640-04:00

I got all 15 right, though I think this test does not prove very much, to be honest. It's mainly trivia, and truthfully the questions about Supreme Court rulings really do not have anything to do with the actual religious beliefs and practices of most Americans. Those are legal, constitutional issues.

In addition, while in the abstract study of comparative religions is interesting and useful, and the nuns made sure I learned all about the world's major religions when I was in Catholic school, I don't think that an average person's lack of knowledge about the identity of the gods of Hinduism, for example, or the majority religion of Pakistan, is a reflection of ignorance of one's own religious beliefs if in fact one is neither a Hindu nor a Muslim. The media's portrayal of this kind of test as somehow definitive of religious ignorance is a red herring.

I got all 15 right. I'm a little less certain...

2010-09-29T10:56:32.274-04:00

I got all 15 right. I'm a little less certain that all 15 are equally (or even approximately equally) important.

I took the test and got 14 out of 15 correct (Moss...

2010-09-29T09:45:02.063-04:00

I took the test and got 14 out of 15 correct (Mosses who?). Most of what I know about other religions is what I have heard or read in brief articles. What is a good, simple book about other religions?

I took it. I got 14 out of 15 and not to sound def...

2010-09-29T08:42:19.225-04:00

I took it. I got 14 out of 15 and not to sound defensive, because I was rushing, I hit an incorrect answer but did not attempt to go back. I wonder if it would have let me change it? (It was the last question FWIW.) I am saddened by the amount of Catholics with a misunderstanding of the Eucharist.

Fran

Thanks for the thoughtful comments. You're rig...

2010-09-28T14:12:38.409-04:00

Thanks for the thoughtful comments.
You're right. Many people -- an entire generation, almost two -- have been poorly catechized. We need to find a way to reach those adult Catholics (I call them the "Lost Generation" when I give presentations on this) through their children in religious education programs.
I have had numerous people tell me that they didn't know Church teaching until they read my book, "The Complete Idiot's Guide to the Catholic Catechism," which basically puts the full catechism into plain English. These are people who went to CCD and even Catholic school.
As someone who came of age in the "Era of the Collage" I get that. I credit my family with giving me my faith foundation. But if families can't provide that -- and many Catholic families today simply don't have the information to do it -- we're going to have an even worse problem when the next generation grows up.

As Erin points out, converts to Catholicism know m...

2010-09-28T12:15:38.526-04:00

As Erin points out, converts to Catholicism know more about the catechism of the faith than those of us raised in the church. This is much like immigrants to the U.S. They have to have learn about U.S. history and government before they can be citizens. I was baptized into the church when I was 13 days old. An adult who wants to be baptized or confirmed goes through RCIA for many months before they receive a sacrament.

Having worked at Protestant churches for 15 of the last 20 years, I've encountered some mild (mostly good-natured) Catholic-bashing and have been compelled to educate myself on the real teachings of the church rather than falling back on stereotypes or gut feelings.

Parishes would do well to have ongoing classes and discussion on just what it means to be a Catholic. The more I've learned, the better I've felt about being part of this church.

Wonderful article!!! I often have to defend my cho...

2010-09-28T12:07:34.577-04:00

Wonderful article!!! I often have to defend my choice in choosing and paying for Catholic schools even to my Catholic friends, so I really appreciate and agree with this article!

What about Catholics compared to other Catholics? ...

2010-09-28T10:23:27.822-04:00

What about Catholics compared to other Catholics? I'm speaking of of cradle Catholics vs. late-in-life converts. Through entirely personal observation vs. well structured formal research, I have discovered that the converts know more about their faith than those who were raised from childhood in the faith.

As Jimbob posited, the cradle Catholics seems to have a higher level of indifference towards their faith. I can only presume this is because as many have said to me, "they have have it [religious education] crammed down their throat since childhood". Even the parents who bring their children to PSR hold on to the indifference and apathy. Many parents are just not interested in participating in the faith with their children; bringing them to class is really more obligation than genuine interest.

I cannot get into the PEW site (Yahoo has a link s...

2010-09-28T10:05:10.428-04:00

I cannot get into the PEW site (Yahoo has a link so apparently there are many trying to get in). I went to Catholic school years ago, but still remember most of the "basics." One or two hours of religious instruction per week is what most children get, and most of them drop out after confirmation. Instruction in the homily is important. Many web sites I have seen are more about politics or getting the Latin Mass back than teaching.

contd "St. Thomas Aquinas quotes a gloss of ...

2010-09-28T08:53:04.065-04:00

contd

"St. Thomas Aquinas quotes a gloss of St. Jerome on Matthew 27: "As Christ became accursed of the cross for us, for our salvation He was crucified as a guilty one among the guilty." As Prof. Michael Pakaluk writes: "If no crime deserves the death penalty, then it is hard to see why it was fitting that Christ be put to death for our sins and crucified among thieves." " That Christ be put to death as a guilty person, presupposes that death is a fitting punishment for those who are guilty." The Death Penalty: An Opposing Viewpoints Series Book, Greenhaven Press, (hereafter TDP:OVS), 1991

Saint (& Pope) Pius V, "The just use of (executions), far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this (Fifth) Commandment which prohibits murder." "The Roman Catechism of the Council of Trent" (1566).

Pope Pius XII: "When it is a question of the execution of a man condemned to death it is then reserved to the public power to deprive the condemned of the benefit of life, in expiation of his fault, when already, by his fault, he has dispossessed himself of the right to live." 9/14/52.

Christians who speak out against capital punishment in deserving cases " . . . tend to subordinate the justice of God to the love of God. . . . Peter, by cutting off Malchu’s ear,. . . was most likely trying to kill the soldier (John 18:10)", prompting " . . . Christ’s statement that those who kill by the sword are subject to die by the sword (Matthew 26:51-52)." This " implicitly recognizes the government’s right to exercise the death penalty." Dr. Carl F.H.Henry, "A Matter of Life and Death", p 52 Christianity Today, 8/4/95.

"Death Penalty Support: Religious and Secular Scholars"
http://prodpinnc.blogspot.com/2009/07/death-penalty-support-modern-catholic.html

"The Death Penalty: Neither Hatred nor Revenge"
http://homicidesurvivors.com/2009/07/20/the-death-penalty-neither-hatred-nor-revenge.aspx

"The Death Penalty: Not a Human Rights Violation"
http://homicidesurvivors.com/2006/03/20/the-death-penalty-not-a-human-rights-violation.aspx

"Killing equals Killing: The Amoral Confusion of Death Penalty Opponents"
http://homicidesurvivors.com/2009/02/01/murder-and-execution--very-distinct-moral-differences--new-mexico.aspx

"Sister Helen Prejean & the death penalty: A Critical Review"
http://homicidesurvivors.com/2009/05/04/sister-helen-prejean--the-death-penalty-a-critical-review.aspx

"The Death Penalty: More Protection for Innocents"
http://homicidesurvivors.com/2009/07/05/the-death-penalty-more-protection-for-innocents.aspx

cont Some lesser New Testament scholars Saint Pa...

2010-09-28T08:51:09.259-04:00

cont

Some lesser New Testament scholars

Saint Paul, in his hearing before Festus, states: "if then I am a wrong doer, and have committed anything worthy of death, I do not refuse to die." Acts 25:11.

St. Augustine: "The same divine law which forbids the killing of a human being allows certain exceptions. Since the agent of authority is but a sword in the hand, and is not responsible for the killing, it is in no way contrary to the commandment "Thou shalt not kill", for the representative of the State's authority to put criminals to death, according to the Law or the rule of rational justice." The City of God, Book 1, Chapter 21

St. Thomas Aquinas finds all biblical interpretations against executions "frivolous", citing Exodus 22:18, "wrongdoers thou shalt not suffer to live". Unequivocally, he states," The civil rulers execute, justly and sinlessly, pestiferous men in order to protect the peace of the state." (Summa Contra Gentiles, III, 146

St. Thomas Aquinas: "The fact that the evil, as long as they live, can be corrected from their errors does not prohibit the fact that they may be justly executed, for the danger which threatens from their way of life is greater and more certain than the good which may be expected from their improvement. They also have at that critical point of death the opportunity to be converted to God through repentance. And if they are so stubborn that even at the point of death their heart does not draw back from evil, it is possible to make a highly probable judgement that they would never come away from evil to the right use of their powers." Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III, 146.

Saints Thomas Aquinas and Augustine. In addition to the required punishment for murder and the deterrence standards, both Saints find that executing murderers is also an act of charity and mercy. Saint Augustine confirms that " . . . inflicting capital punishment . . . protects those who are undergoing capital punishment from the harm they may suffer . . . through increased sinning which might continue if their life went on." (On the Lord's Sermon, 1.20.63-64.)

Saint Thomas Aquinas finds that " . . . the death inflicted by the judge profits the sinner, if he be converted, unto the expiation of his crime; and, if he be not converted, it profits so as to put an end to the sin, because the sinner is thus deprived of the power to sin anymore." (Summa Theologica, II-II, 25, 6 ad 2.)

St. Thomas Aquinas: "If a man is a danger to the community, threatening it with disintegration by some wrongdoing of his, then his execution for the healing and preservation of the common good is to be commended. Only the public authority, not private persons, may licitly execute malefactors by public judgement. Men shall be sentenced to death for crimes of irreparable harm or which are particularly perverted." Summa Theologica, 11; 65-2; 66-6.

contd

cont Some lesser New Testament scholars Saint P...

2010-09-28T08:42:51.438-04:00

God: 'Honor your father and your mother,' ...

2010-09-28T08:37:58.317-04:00

God: 'Honor your father and your mother,' and 'Whoever curses father or mother must certainly be put to death.' Matthew 15:4

Jesus: "So Pilate said to (Jesus), "Do you not speak to me? Do you not know that I have power to release you and I have power to crucify you?" Jesus answered (him), "You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above." John 19:10-11

Jesus: Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, "Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us." The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, "Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal." Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." (Jesus) replied to him, "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." Luke 23: 39-43

Jesus: "You have heard the ancients were told, ˜YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER" and "Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court". But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, "Raca", shall be guilty before the supreme court and whoever shall say, "You fool", shall be guilty enough to go into fiery hell." Matthew 5:17-22.

The Holy Spirit: God, through the power and justice of the Holy Spirit, executed both Ananias and his wife, Saphira. Their crime? Lying to the Holy Spirit - to God - through Peter. Acts 5:1-11.

The Word of God: Numbers 35:16-21. Note the words "shall" and "surely". What do you think they mean?
‘But if he struck him down with an iron object, so that he died, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death. ‘If he struck him down with a stone in the hand, by which he will die, and as a result he died, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death. ‘Or if he struck him with a wooden object in the hand, by which he might die, and as a result he died, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death. ‘The blood avenger himself shall put the murderer to death; he shall put him to death when he meets him. ‘If he pushed him of hatred, or threw something at him lying in wait and as a result he died, or if he struck him down with his hand in enmity, and as a result he died, the one who struck him shall surely be put to death, he is a murderer; the blood avenger shall put the murderer to death when he meets him.
Here is the full context http://nasb.scripturetext.com/numbers/35.htm

contd

As a Catholic that was extremely poorly catechized...

2010-09-28T08:25:03.325-04:00

As a Catholic that was extremely poorly catechized (I remember Christmas sermons where Mary was described as a girl in trouble, Joseph was described as a potential deadbeat dad, and Jesus was almost a bastard child), I can understand why Catholics scored so low.

But having read many blogs that have a high percentage of atheists, I have a different take.

Atheists do not know more of the faith than Catholics....They know a parody of the faith. Besides the ones presented by South Park, Dawkins, Hitchens, etc they know all the parodies of the faith which are popular memes:
http://www.tn-atheist.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/christianityexplained.jpg
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Zombie_Jesus

The average Catholic may not know what the Eucharist is, but he or she knows that its something special. I don't know what the other questions were so I can't comment, but if they included anything on the Reformation, I don't expect Catholics would know much about that at all any more than they would know about Buddhism. I learnt that Buddhism, Confucianism, and Humanism existed in high school. I didn't know that there was such a thing as Protestants until long after University. TV preachers seemed like lay folk to me.

I would argue against Rev. Hamilton's conclusi...

2010-09-28T08:20:25.709-04:00

I would argue against Rev. Hamilton's conclusion. I would posit that Christians' ignorance of Christian teaching is due to indifference, not an a priori acceptance of truth.

Having received catechesis in two East Coast diocese, and now teaching it in Lincoln, Nebraska, I can see that the attitude of clergy and catechists is key. You can't teach, or sell, what you don't believe. Folks that disagree with some of their denomination's doctrine will be hard-pressed to sell the whole package.