Comments on OSV Daily Take Blog: Archbishop Niederauer's meeting with Pelosi

Anonymous cites Jeremiah 1:5 as a biblical basis f...

2009-02-20T13:54:00.000-05:00

Anonymous cites Jeremiah 1:5 as a biblical basis for the opinion that “our souls must be created at the moment of conception or maybe even before that moment.”

In a previous post, I referenced an article about when a person becomes a person, http://ncronline3.org/drupal/?q=node/2864. The following excerpt from that article speaks to this very point and expands on it:

“Christians, of whom this writer is one, can find scant guidance on when personhood begins by reading the Bible. Some cite Jeremiah 1:5 (“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations”), but many readers find this to be a statement of Jeremiah’s preordination, not the inception of his personhood. Other find Ecclesiastes 11:5 more relevant (“As you do not know the path of the wind, or how the body is formed in a mother’s womb, so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things”).
Indeed, the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith noted more than three decades ago that it is not within the competence of human knowledge to determine when God infuses an immortal soul into a developing person. (See footnote 19of “Declaration on Procured Abortion,” Nov. 18, 1974)”.

Anthony Ferralli: #366 clearly uses the word "imme...

2009-02-20T11:21:00.000-05:00

Anthony Ferralli: #366 clearly uses the word "immediately" in the sense of DIRECTLY by God, not indirectly by God via the parents: "The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - ..." This Catechism quotation does not mean immediately in the sense of NOW or at the moment of conception.

Webster defines immediately: (a) without intervening agency or cause; directly (b) without delay; at once; instantly.

You have mistakenly taken the Catechism's use of the word "immediately" in the latter sense (b), while the catechism clearly uses the word in the sense of definition (a).

Do you remember the Bible?
'Before I formed yo...

2009-02-20T10:25:00.000-05:00

Do you remember the Bible?
'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.' (Jeremiah 1:5).

There should be no question of when a fetus has a soul. If God knows us before we are formed in the womb then our souls must be created at the moment of conception or maybe even before that moment. Each sperm that naturally unites with an egg has meaning and purpose in this world. Abortion at any stage of life denies the world the joy and beauty of God's creation.

Raymonda2, You have put together very poor argumen...

2009-02-20T10:08:00.000-05:00

Raymonda2, You have put together very poor arguments for abortion, and sited very poor arguments as well. We don't practice our religion in a vacuum. When you take in ALL the teachings of the Church through sacred Scripture and Tradition, your position of pro-abortion does not add up. You are showing lack of humility and assigning yourself as your own pope to think any different than the Church. God never said you had to understand ALL of his teachings, he said you had to obey ALL his teachings. Which means you need to assent your will to his. His representative on earth right now is his Bride the Church. He promised he would protect her from error on doctrine. Do you not trust our Lord? Same problem Adam and Eve had, which is why we have original sin. The Devil is a crafty lyer and he has deceived you by using your own intellect. You think because you might be smarter than those in the Magisterium, that you are right. That's Pride. That's dangerous for you. Please reconsider your possition for your own sake.

Good try Hinderliter but #366 states that "ev...

2009-02-20T09:02:00.000-05:00

Good try Hinderliter but #366 states that "every spiritual soul is created IMMEDIATELY by God" Immediated does not mean hours days or months but NOW>

When does the fetus have an immortal soul, and the...

2009-02-20T09:00:00.000-05:00

When does the fetus have an immortal soul, and thereupon become a human person? Anonymous asks, “Is it weeks, days, hours?”

I would make my own the sentiment expressed by Barack Obama: It is above my pay grade. Someday, perhaps we will discover the answer to this question, but what are we to do in the meantime? The US Supreme Court presently interprets the civil laws of our pluralistic nation as follows: The fetus has civil rights when it becomes viable, i.e. when it is capable of meaningful life outside the womb. Up until then, its rights are not recognized by our laws and the mother’s rights prevail, including her right to abort the fetus. I support the position of Catholic legislators like Nancy Pelosi who favor measures to help women avoid unwanted pregnancies through contraception and to assist women with troubled pregnancies to carry their baby to term.

For an informed opinion about delayed ensoulment, see the following:

http://ncronline3.org/drupal/?q=node/2864

In consideration of ranmonda2's post, maybe this i...

2009-02-19T18:46:00.000-05:00

In consideration of ranmonda2's post, maybe this is part of the problem. People are under their own understanding of when there is a "person" or human. Biologist agree that life begins at conception and the church takes the same stance. We have an obligation to protect all human's even at the earliest stage of development. Maybe there is a need to better inform people of when life truly begins.

Good try raymonda2...but it won't fly.

It i...

2009-02-19T18:39:00.000-05:00

Good try raymonda2...but it won't fly.

It is recognized Catholic teaching and scientifically supported that life begins at the time of conception and within hours the egg and sperm cells no longer exist and the conceived life exists as a unique, created cell structure.

The immortal soul does exist at conception -- See Catechism #366 "The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection."

To ramonda2
"Homicide" is a legal term that's n...

2009-02-19T18:31:00.000-05:00

To ramonda2
"Homicide" is a legal term that's not at issue here. That the Church proclaims abortion to be "gravely sinful" and she refuses to accept it says it all to me when she claims to be Catholic. Because she supports grave sin means she is not in communion with the Church. She should simply say that and move to a denomination that agrees with her and stop the charade.

In response to the last post: so when does the fet...

2009-02-19T17:14:00.000-05:00

In response to the last post: so when does the fetus have a soul? Is it weeks, days, hours? I was taught the you have a soul at your conception. perhaps I need a new American updated catechism.

Until the fetus has developed to the point where i...

2009-02-19T17:00:00.000-05:00

Until the fetus has developed to the point where it is able to have an immortal soul, it is not a person. Abortion during that early period may be gravely sinful in the eyes of the Church, but is not homicide. Catholic legislators like Nancy Pelosi may support freedom of choice for the mother in the early stages of a pregnancy while the fetus is not yet a person and therefore does not yet have rights.

I wasn't aware that any Republican Catholics suppo...

2009-02-19T16:05:00.000-05:00

I wasn't aware that any Republican Catholics supported torture. If they do, they should be ex-communicated, too, right after they ex-communicate all the pro-abortion Democrats.

Nice post. Abortion and torture are not moral equ...

2009-02-19T14:13:00.000-05:00

Nice post. Abortion and torture are not moral equivalents. Good try, though! You are repeating worn out boilerplate (and unsuccessful) attempts to rationalize pro-abortion stances.

And while we're at it, perhaps we should single ou...

2009-02-19T13:32:00.000-05:00

And while we're at it, perhaps we should single out some Republican politicians who should be denied communion; because I'm fairly certain that supporting torture is a sin. Abortion is not the only important topic that needs to be discussed.

Mrs. Pelosi's disdain for Catholic teaching and he...

2009-02-19T10:32:00.000-05:00

Mrs. Pelosi's disdain for Catholic teaching and her attempts to create a personal competing magisterium are intolerable. Recognizing the risks given her position and the reduction in the image of the Church thanks to certain errant priests bishops nonetheless she must be denied communion.yseenp